me tooo … im a free thinker, i dont commit to one religion, and er … i dont think im fit to be in haha … im just not interested and so i opt for the one who has gone out to taste the real life instead of the one picking up the bible :p

u shld read the book by richard dawkins, The God delusion…he is an atheist. I love the logic he used when explaning about his own opinions and researches. Darn gud! But a lot of religious people dislike him..you know why lahhh.. ;P
I’m a buddhist at first and now…free thinker too.

A few things:

A belief system shouldn’t be limited to simply what you have felt or experienced personally, as no one person can experience all of what comes under ‘human existence’. As such, should a person disbelieve that which he hasn’t come to understand or seen himself?

The Islamic website you pointed to is kinda stretching the ‘flat earth’ theory, considering the verses they cite are kinda descriptive instead of a literal interpretation of the beginnings of the world (to say nothing of the chip on their shoulder; ‘noble verses’? Ooooookay). And one does not believe in science. One tests it and finds that it works. There is no faith required in something that can be measured, repeated, and observed in lab conditions.

The old man lived to that age before realizing his ‘mistake’. Consider how hard and fast we live in these times. What if one does not get the chance to ‘repent’? And is a planned repentance at a senile really remorse rather than a way to try and ‘beat the system’?

John Locke: “Information wants to be free, yo! Pirating is the way to go!”

Hmmm, I am a free thinker too.
To me, I am happy on what I am today,
I feel happy to be me,
and happy that I’m not tie on something.

I mean if you are holding any religion,
you will say you cannot do this, you cannot do that,
coz god said so.
But me, I’m free to do whatever I think it’s right to do.

Someone somehow actually tried make me accept christ
I was lost that time, and I guess I accidentally accepted it
He claims that I accepted christ,
but in the end, I realised I believe on myself.

i remain a staunch agnostic =)

I followed your link to “the earth is flat.” It refers to scriptures that speak of the pillars of the earth, the four corners of the earth, the foundations of the earth, and so forth.

In any context other than putting down the bible, people would instantly recognize these as figures of speech, not to be taken literally. Today we speak of the sun rising and setting. Does it? Literally? We tell people to “stop beating around the bush.” What bush? Where is it? Is anyone so dence as to not recognize a metaphor? Yet these same people insist the bible descriptions listed are literal.

Besides Isa 40:22, which the source dismisses, Job 26:7-10 also shows bible writers knew the nature of the earth:

“He is stretching out the north over the empty place, hanging the earth upon nothing……He has described a circle upon the face of the waters, to where light ends in darkness. Job 26:10

Seen from space, the line between light and darkness would indeed be a circle. Not only is it round, (there is no Hebrew word for “sphere”) but it “hangs upon nothing.”

You are really sure bible writers believed the earth to be flat?

[mochii]
don’t commit to one religion , meaning you join others as well ?? hehe

[pk]
well , i wouldn’t call myself an atheist, because mayyyybe I leave a little possibility for intelligent design. I think we don’t understand any of it yet, so yeah , call me agnostic.

[leyon]
You are right that one cannot experience everything under human existence. Then why pretend to fill in the blanks with religion ? Isn’t it just guessing (which some people call faith) ?

Perhaps the faith in science is the ability to hypothesize, and also be able to challenge its principles by experiment. In religion , there is no challenging or questioning the authority of the church/mosque/gospel. That is the biggest problem.

I was the difficult one in church, always questioning, always doubting. Perhaps I could be nicknamed Thomas ! haha.

and John Locke didn’t say that … -_-”

[Jason]
you are right, being a free thinker lets you be whoever you want to be !

[Irene]
You’re telling me you never went to church to fish for guys ???

[tomsheepandgoats ... interesting name :)]
You see, I find it rather convenient when it suits a bible reader to dismiss certain verses as figures of speech and take other verses literally.

Language has changed dramatically since the bible was written and who is to say what are metaphors and what are to be taken literally ?

Perhaps there was something lost in translation?

Oh , I also didn’t know there wasn’t a hebrew word for sphere.

I also found a few more verses in the bible which are clearly not figures of speech:

Daniel 4:7-8, “I saw a tree of great height at the center of the world. It was large and strong, with its top touching the heavens, and it could be seen from the ends of the earth.”

Matthew 4:8, “The devil took him (Jesus) to a very high mountain and displayed before him all the kingdoms of the world in their magnificence….”

So yes, I still believe Bible writes really thoguht the world was flat. As was conventional wisdom back in those days.

I was a Cristian once. Then I discovered it was a load of bullshit - no offence. Now I have embraced the world of agnosticism. It’s better this way. Most of the time those fucked up religious people are the ones fucking up their own lives. I’ll make sure my kids stay away from religion! It’s bad for your health!

I agree with Cazzy’s - “Most of the time those fucked up religious people are the ones fucking up their own lives.”

No offense yah…

Anyway, I believe that all religions are the same, the purpose of a religion is to teach people to do more good, forgive and forget, kind, bla bla and bla… It is just that they come in different look, that’s all.

Right now, the only ‘God’ that I’m worshiping to keep me alive is the “Agung’s Head” in Malaysia.

i watched the richard darkins documentary. he sounds a little too angry at times, but the facts, cause and effect he clearly documented are mind opening. you should watch it. it’s called the root of all evil. i think there are two parts.

The problem is we don’t know if all religions are guesswork, having not been there when such extraordinary events ‘happened’. It’d be nice to have a time-machine, but for now we probably have to work with what text / proof / evidence / or lack thereof that we have. I’d say a religious culture that discourages critical thinking is simply a cult, really. Faith isn’t something that is given to you, it’s something that grows with you, in the same way I have faith in my significant other not suddenly turning around and stabbing me in the back over breakfast. Shun organized religion, but don’t throw out all the teachings simply because the practitioners suck. The Bible is still a good book.

I hear you on the doubting Thomas bit; I tended to embarass those conducting the ‘teaching’ during cell groups way back then as well

you don’t doubt your significant other because she is there. flesh and bone. right next to you. a person you can touch and communicate with. a person you know intimately because you interact.
unless that significant other is psychotic and deranged, no one would doubt their significant other would suddenly stab them at the back during breakfast.
the faith grows because your significant other doesn’t wave a parang every now and then at your direction.
how can you compare that kind of faith, with a faith that rests purely on what a good book says?

The irony is that God, to many Christians, is ‘there, right next to you, a Person you can touch and communicate with, and person you know intimately because you interact’.

Faith doesn’t come from a book. It comes from knowing a person. The Book simply describes the Person. A Christian’s faith in God grows, I’d imagine, from them knowing God’s characteristics and desires in much the same way they know people, instead of simply treating Him like some universal Force or abstract concept or a wrathful Zeus in the sky to tremble under.

Perhaps the stabbing analogy wasn’t clear: I meant to illustrate that while you don’t know what a person will do 100% in a given situation, you have faith in that knowing the person relatively well will give you a good indication of their reaction towards a given action. Same is with the God concept: if you know He reacts positively to certain actions or thoughts, and you observe those in your ‘interactions’ with Him, it would make sense that He doesn’t suddenly decide to kill your entire immediate and extended family. Or he might, but that probably has the same chances of your S.O. spontaneously thinking of having your still-beating heart for breakfast.

Course, I personally think it’s all rubbish, but that doesn’t mean the two are not comparable.

interactions and touching with an imaginary character based on a book is called delusion. and as you pointed out, the practitioners who sucked, are the ones who claim that the book is the word of god.

Today
Boy : Pastor/Priest/Pope/Bishop/Elder, today my dad won RM1,000,000 from the lottery. Isn’t gambling not encouraged or worst… EVIL?

Pastor/Priest/Pope/Bishop/Elder : My dear son, you and your dad have been in a really difficult situation regarding finances for a very long time.. now God has answered your prayers.

Boy : HALLELUJAH!

Next Day
Boy : Pastor/Priest/Pope/Bishop/Elder, my dad died this morning. He was knocked down by a speeding vehicle. Why did that happen father?! WHY!

Pastor/Priest/Pope/Bishop/Elder: God moves in mysterious ways my son. you must have faith

When faced with a dead ended situation, many would take advantage of the word Faith. lan chiao

[ashley and leon]
did you know , you guys went to the same church ? haha. just pointing it out …

[nottifish]
yes, I find it rather convenient , when churchgoers choose what are god’s blessings , and what are not .

“What kind of spiritual leader would you rather listen to ? One that has gone around the world and back, living all that life has to offer and finally finds salvation ? Or one that goes to bible school/college and learns about life from his sheltered existence ?”

Nice picture you painted to support your argument. What about the leader who went around the world , sees and understand through experience the suffering and decides to be pragmatic and makes decisions where the ends justifies the means? What the sheltered man who lives life vicariously through his bible and from there strives idealistically to make the life of those around him better through goodwill despite the odds?

You’ve draw a simple conclusion from simple logic that black is black and white is white. The unfortunate truth about life, religion and everything in between is that that’s just it, it’s black and white with everything in between. People are multifaceted creatures with the propensity to do great good and commit horrendous atrocities so do not let vocal minority discolour your view religion and the good it can do. For every one terrorist/zealot there are many more genuinely good , if not inherently then by the grace of religion.

The concept of a God far predates the Bible. As long as there have been people, there has been religion. Perhaps it is a human need or yearning to connect with some big Thing out there. Pretending, however, that there can not be a greater being in the known universe than humans, based on the limitations of human reasoning and observance, are just as, if not more so, ‘delusional’. Fact is no one really knows what’s out there.

Now, each religion has their greats and hypocrites and pretenders and seekers. Would you then deign to paint Mother Theresa as sucky? Her faith / delusion was a major part of her life and served as the overriding drive to help others. To paint with such broad strokes is unhelpful. Granted there are the Pat Robertsons and Jerry Falwells in the world, but religion is what you make of it.

Why do you care what others act like and use it as the basis of one’s own interpretation of what God should be? Is it not a personal search instead of a ‘look at them, they suck, therefore there is no such thing as God’ finger-pointing exercise?

lol. everything he has argued about makes no sense in response to everything else we said. just because u cannot prove that the god you guys pray to from the bible you call the good book, you keluar tajuk. because now you realise, that you do take the bible as the word of god, because you were brought up that way. by the practioners you say suck. not because it’s proven fact. so don’t go pissing me about things that doesn’t have anything to do with what i said. mother theresa was against condom use in aids ridden africa. spoken like a true ignorant christian. i’m wasting my time. i was only trying to point out, that having faith in a living being, is not comparable to something you wish was out there. who is the one whose pointing the finger now.

[dogma]
Ahh yes, I understand your point. The person that travels the world and finds ugliness instead of beauty must have been to the wrong places ! And the vicarious one at home studying the bible finding only good is ignorantly blessed !

I still stand by experience as my guide though. And yes, I’ve known good and bad christians, it’s just that the church I used to go to had a big share of judgmental closet minded christians. Like they burn statues of buddha outside the church in front of the neighbours. That , I cannot accept.

[leyon]
Some people argue that we can’t see “air” but it’s there. We can feel it, we can breathe it. That being said, I don’t feel god in my heart when I do something.

I don’t tell myself “god has blessed me today with a parking space”. I tell myself “yes, I’m glad I’m early to find that parking space. I am responsible for my own fate”. Faith in god, is very irresponsible and lazy if you ask me.

What does it say about a certain church, if most of the people I see in it are a bunch of nuts to me ? I’ve been to 2 churches in my life and I see the same thing. Do I go to 2 casinos to see if my luck is better in another ? Hell no.

[ashley]
I didn’t know mother theresa was against condom use. However, I think her other contributions should outweigh that one stance.

And I wouldn’t even put faith in a living being. I would want to grow faith in myself first. Before relying on another, but that’s another topic …

Nobody can prove that God exists. Unless God wants to prove to anybody He exists, He won’t.

This topic is comedy gold

Ashley:
Funny how I’m actually simply replying to everything you said. I’m fairly sure I’m within context and on-topic. And I’m actually not Christian, so please stop your frothing for a moment and read before you get all riled up over nothing. I’ve never said once I pray to the Christian God, so don’t assume I do. In fact, you repeating that ‘you said practitioners suck’ phrase is probably more out of context than most things I said, considering the original sentence is to ‘Shun organized religion, but don’t throw out all the teachings simply because the practitioners suck.’

As you were trying to point out, I said in my first reply that Christians view God as a person, instead of an abstract concept. So that very notion of ‘I can’t react with him in the same way I react with a human therefore I cannot have faith in him’ does not fly with them. I even qualified that by saying this wasn’t my own belief, but apparently you didn’t read that.

Your angry generalizations are actually quite hilarious to read, as is your trying to -actually- say that Mother Theresa sucks. I’m fairly sure rational minded people all over the world rejoiced when she died.

Jason:
Aha! But ‘air’ can be measured and observed. Can the same be said for God? I don’t buy into the whole ‘do you feel God in your heart when you do X’ mantra, really. It’s the Mormon way :/. It would make more sense to say ‘I do this because it’s the right thing to do (and/or what God told me to do)’, which isn’t much better, really.

I absolutely agree with you on the blessing bull. God doesn’t give you grace and high scores in university exams because of fervent praying. You’ve got to study. In this regard, I think people use it in a similar way to the concept of ‘luck’. Therefore ‘God blessed me with a parking space’ simply really means ‘Damn, I’m lucky today’. Unless of course you’re one of those nutcases who sees God behind every rock and Satan behind every bush.

To be honest, I think institutions are the best way to ruin religion. It might be more helpful to simply look for the people who are genuine seekers, instead of looking at the entire church and thinking ‘Bleh, this sucks, everyone here is a hypocrite’. It’s worked for me in getting to know a little deeper about Christianity as it affects people as compared to prancing around the Sunday social circuit with people who do nothing but gossip about the latest sex scandals. Also, knowing the house rules for different casinos -does- mathematically change your luck, so try a few more

Chea Yee:
So why do we have this whole thing called Christianity that is fervently trying to prove exactly that?

Leon: you’re back…! I wonder where u went. Hehe… u crazy fella.. miss ur caustic tongue.

Pragmatic believers would say that the only way to know if God exists is that the individual has to go seeking for Him. (unless u are one of those Jonah wannabes that God goes after). And i only mean those who do that with an open heart and mind, and ready to put God to a challenge.

ahh , looks like this topic can finally go to rest.

Leon, I get the feeling you’re debating for the sake of debating haha. I dono what side you are on. Would you go back to church one day? Just wondering …

Chea Yee: I’ve seeked before and I do not find. Do I continue until I die ? I don’t see the point.

I think I’m lack in wisdom in many areas and sometimes I’m afraid of my own innate ability to bend truth to fit my own reality, hence its great then to have a set of principles that I could have as a reference, a kind of checkpoint to how to go about in life. I don’t believe they are to be taken and accepted just like that but to be tested practically.

Maybe it’s a delusion like Ashley says? But, praying, worshiping God and just those moments gives me a sense of peace and wholeness which I’ve been trying hard all this while to replace but never really found anything yet. It’s like a proper meal for the soul which keeps you full for a longer time then what the world so far offers.

And, when times that are shit, when I can’t give answers to what I should do in such a situation, it’s a hell of a comfort to be able to just let go and pray. If not for that, I’d be in mental points of no return.

You know me Jason, I don’t portray what a ‘Christian’ should be. But if it’s between me and God, I vouch that He’s been time and time again there for me, for my family, for my friends.

In the end, I guess it’s just the Christian’s that proceed to be holier then thou’s that are hurting people all around them.

All in all, it’s a personal account, and not one that wants to be the Truth. Just sharing.

Jason: your hope for a peaceful end to a provocative discussion is thus rendered unsuccessful…Muaha ha ha ha.